Am I the only one that’s a just a tiny bit pissed off that this is still an issue?
The Original Series wasn’t even in the general VICINITY of fucking around yo
How many shows these days would do this, and do it this way? These days, it would be all, “Ohh, we have to be sensitive and show the nuances of each side” and try not to make either side seem wrong. It wouldn’t be clearly spelled out, “pro-choice is right, if you’re against it you’re the bad guys.”
Jim Kirk is not here for your anti-birth-control, anti-choice, pro-death-penalty BS
Keep in mind this episode aired in 1969 – four years before Roe v. Wade.
James Tiberius Kirk was written and portrayed as a feminist and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
Yep. That episode is exactly what you think it is: pro-birth control, pro-population control, pro-choice, and pro-women’s right to choose. And yes, Kirk, the supposed playboy of the spaceways, is in favor of all of the above.
I found myself taking mental notes, storing away
memories that might prove useful in the role. I was like the poor hunchback on
the pillory, subjected to a humiliating public display; I felt alien to the
point of being ridiculous. I knew that once I left, the crew would exchange
jokes about my appearance – and as I stood there on the empty, lighted set, I
felt myself building defenses, attempting to elevate my thinking beyond any
concern for the opinions of mere humans. Spock was beginning to come to life. […] the Vulcan makeup served as inspiration. As with Kid Monk, when I saw my slow transformation in the makeup mirror from human to Vulcan, an inner transformation took place as well.
– Leonard Nimoy, ‘I Am Spock’
You know, I can’t really play Spock unless I shave my eyebrows off my face and get a bowl haircut and sit in a makeup chair for three hours and have someone put ears on me. That informs the emotional depth of that character. He holds himself in a different way, it’s something that’s applied more than excavated.
Zach’s Spock has more subtle expression than Nimoy’s does. Not much eyebrow-raising, for instance. I notice that Zach holds his mouth differently when playing Spock, too. His emotional inflection is in his voice.
Nimoy had a flatter vocal affect, but signalled his emotions with his eyebrows and mouth. He used dry humor to deadly effect, too.
When I read something like this:
Zach’s Spock has more subtle expression than Nimoy’s does.
It’s like
Okay, I’m going to rant here for a bit, and I really don’t mean this on the original poster(s), but more so a lot of things I’ve seen in the past where people like to compare these two universes, and actually put people down for embracing these differences. This specific post just reminded me of it.
So, here goes. Hate me for this or not, don’t care, I’ve gotten a lot worse hate than you could probably throw at me.
See, I don’t really like to compare TOS Spock to AOS Spock, like at all. To me, they are completely different characters.
It’s kind of pointless really to compare them in hopes of putting the other down, or showing where one actor might have been lacking (which isn’t the case). As Nimoy said himself in an interview when they were making the 2009 film in response to what he thought about the rebooted Spock, he said that Quinto does portray the character differently than he did, that he approves of these changes and liked them. He basically said it’s to be expected, given that in the rebooted universe, things happen very differently than how they happened in the Prime Universe to both Jim and Spock.
People need to remember that when we actually start in on the TOS episodes, Spock had been serving on the Enterprise for ten years before Jim came along. (I think?) He also has his mother in this universe, and the Nyota relationship did not happen. Pike was Spock’s entire influence for ten years, and Jim Kirk was already a seasoned officer when he took over the Enterprise from Pike. He had already gained the maturity and experience to be a Starship Captain.
Just the fact that Spock lost Amanda AND HIS PLANET at such an early point in his life would be enough to inspire the character to behave differently than Nimoy’s Spock. Amanda and Vulcan were around in the Prime universe all the way up into Star Trek 4, (Vulcan, obviously staying around) whereas in AOS, those two pillars in his life are gone quicker than shit, and he’s only 28 years old when it happens, just a baby fresh on a ship, and still struggling to find his place in the world.
To have them act the same is ridiculous, because like it or not, they are not the same character. Events have shaped AOS Spock into who he is as we see him STID.
The same goes for TOS Jim and AOS Jim. Two. Completely. Different. Characters. I hate when people put one Kirk down over the other, or shame people for liking one Kirk over the other. Like, totally different interpretations, and I, personally, wouldn’t have it any other way because I hate when films or shows are remade and are fashioned to basically be carbon board cutouts of what their predecessors were. Yes, the reboots are different. Some like that. Some don’t. But to constantly compare the TOS characters to the AOS, and find one or the other wrong is unfounded to me.
Are there things Abrams could and probably should have done differently. For fucking sure, lol. But people also need to remember that this is a movie at the end of the day, and it was made by a director who is in it to bring in new people to make the most bang for the buck. Does that suck? Yeah, but at the end of the day, that was the goal there. the rebooted Trek films were made to appeal to a wide-scale audience and bring in people who might not have given Trek a second thought versus just a certain fanbase.
Does that suck for people who were/are fans long before the reboots? Yeah, it probably does, and I totally understand that feeling. The long time trekkies have been engrained in this fandom LONG before I was even a sperm in a ballsack.
Do I care that the new Trek doesn’t have everything in common with the Prime Trek?
Nope.
Why? Because if I hadn’t fallen in love with the reboots (the first star trek I ever saw that actually made me sit down and watch) I wouldn’t have watched TOS, and fallen in love with that either. I wouldn’t be in this fandom or have met so many great people, or learned so many things about myself whether it was from writing, or watching the show and movies. And let me just go on record and say that after watching TOS and the AOS movies… I love both universes, and appreciate their differences, and the creative spin that the actors (of both) brought to their characters. As flawed as people think AOS is…let’s be honest here. It brought more people into the fandom. It made me aware of Trek’s overall greatness, and I have learned so much from appreciating both versions of these characters. This is why I get irritated when people who have been in this fandom for years upon years put newcomer’s down like we don’t know shit, and don’t deserve to know shit, because like…who are you to judge? Instead of being irritated by all the AOS fic flying around, or the young immature authors, why can’t people be happy that the fandom has grown to include so many new people? Trek has touched so many, and I’m not afraid to say that AOS is responsible for at least a little bit of that. If I had a coin for how many people I’ve seen post things like, “I’m half way through TOS now!!” or something like that, I’d be fucking rich, because these new fans love Trek so much because of the newer movies that they want to know more. The need to know more, and are turning on their goddamn Netflix to watch what inspired the movies they watched.
But, to get back to Jim Kirk….
If anything, these two wouldn’t even get along in the same room because they’re so different, and why would they not be? Jim Kirk, in the AOS universe, lost his father as an infant whereas George Kirk was around for TOS Jim’s entire youth as well as when he took over the Enterprise. AOS Jim grew up in a neglectful home with hints to child abuse and had a mother that the audience can likely conclude wasn’t there, at all. He likely has a history of misdemeanors if not felonies given Pike’s words, “do you like being the only genius level repeat offender in the midwest?” (something like that. Don’t have the script in front of me) Whereas I think it’s safe to assume that TOS Jim does not have a criminal background.
Also, in the TOS Episode, “The Menagerie” I think it’s also safe to conclude that Jim didn’t really know Pike on the personal level that he does in the AOS universe. Like, they knew each other in TOS, but in AOS, it’s definitely more of a father/son relationship. This is also the same in the respect that AOS Spock does not have the relationship with Pike that he had in TOS, because they did not serve on a ship together for ten years. That’s ten years of influence Spock didn’t get from Pike, and instead, will get from the rebooted Kirk instead.
This will and does have an effect on Spock’s character.
Not only that, but that’s also ten years of experience that reboot Kirk isn’t going to get serving as a lowly officer on some other starship, climbing through the ranks, seeing different command styles and learning from those. He’s thrust right into the captain’s chair with basically no experience. Yeah, I’m smart enough to know this was a plot device on the writer’s part to give us a nosedive into Jim Kirk being captain, but it IS canon in this universe, and would have a huge effect on Jim Kirk as a person. Just the fact that Jim Kirk and Spock had such a rocky beginning in their relationship would alter the characters in this timeline.
Basically, what this all boils down to is…AOS and TOS are different. The characters are different. They’re going to be written differently in both the movies and fanfiction, and people really need to stop demonizing others for liking these differences and/or writing these differences. This is why I cannot stand it when people come onto my fics and blast me for making Jim flawed and immature.
Of course he’s fucking flawed and immature. He’s just a baby. Of course Spock shows anger and emotion much more readily in the newer movies. He’s immature and not yet developed into who he wants to be. He’s just a baby. Thank fuck for character development.
Again, I’m not blasting the OP’s here of this post, just responding to a lot of things I’ve seen in the past regarding this fandom. The same can also be said for AOS fans who put down TOS characters, or the fans of those characters. Completely. Different. People. Just as I don’t like it when TOS people put down the AOS people, I don’t approve of AOS people putting down TOS people. I have mad love for both of these universes, and would expect any fan of Star Trek, a show/franchise/move that has shown me more tolerance than any teacher or parent has ever done, to have respect for one another, and embrace that people love different things.
how can we not love them both? hahahahahaha
REBLOG REBLOG REBLOG!!!!! I love both universe so much. I hate when people make me feel bad for liking AOS, and totally agree the other way around. Thank you for posting this. THANK YOU!!!! LLAP!!!
hahaha, I’m glad you liked it. I don’t like shaming of either universe. Embrace them both, and that’s fine if you don’t, just keep that shit to yourself. No reason to put other’s down for what they love.
I agree that the two ‘verses are different. Leonard created the character, Zachary carries on the torch. Both versions are valid and beautifully done. I don’t like AOS shaming at all, just can’t stand it, ugh. At the same time, looking down on the Original Series is a sacrilege for me XD One of the main messages of Star Trek is tolerance. Let’s coexist peacefully. “We have differences: May we, together, become greater than the sum of both of us.”
ALL the Spocks. And ALL the Jims. And all the fanfic versions. Honest to god, why would you want fewer explorations of these fabulous characters?
I think that a fair portion of it can be attributed to how unsatifying the movies are for Jim’s character, too. Like Spock’s issues get fleshed out and talked about and addressed, while Jim’s never really do. So fic kind of fills that in a bit.
yo this is a very good point as well. as fans, we are also confronted with a rather negative portrayal of Jim Kirk as a brash womanizer and in order to bring that 2 dimensional characterization to terms with the Jim Kirk we know and love (Tos Kirk), we have to give him angst, a backstory that explain such behavior. not to mention the fact that AOS Kirk’s characterization is often reduced to a punchline surprisingly often for a main character (see: risking his life during a joy ride: “My name’s James Tiberius Kirk.”)
so we use fanfiction for its best purpose. to fill in the blanks.
Like, think about the first time we see Jim in AOS. He’s being born, it’s very sad, his mom is crying, but she’s cooing at him and obviously loves him, so okay. But the next time we see him, he’s driving a car off a cliff. How did we get from Point A to Point B? What happened to this kid to make him do this, to make him be like this? Who cares. Who fucking cares. Whatever.
So the next time we see him, he’s in a bar, he’s chasing sex and getting into barfights, and we learn from his next exchange that he’s a “genius-level repeat offender.” This is the baby from the first scene with the tearjerker-scene about his parents and his dad’s last words being that he loves them. What happened to this kid?
Again, who knows. It’s never explained or touched on.
Both movies do this. The first movie explains Spock’s arc pretty concisely, half-human alien ostracized by his people and at home nowhere, attempting to reconcile his emotional side with the part of him that believes that he shouldn’t have emotions. Not only is it explained, but it’s resolved: by the end of the movie, Spock has heard his father admit he loved his mother, thereby confirming that his father has accepted his emotional side, and believes Spock should too. Spock then, at the end, chooses the Enterprise over returning to Vulcan, thereby choosing to honor his human half rather than force himself to pretend to be all-Vulcan. In the second movie, it’s kind of the same: Spock denies his emotional half, the part of him that feels friendship (or hella gayness), but accepts it by the end of the film.
Jim’s arcs never see that kind of resolution.
In the first movie, we see a wise-cracking “genius repeat offender” who gets into barfights and cheats on tests, but we’re never explained why he does the things he does. What’s Jim’s arc? He becomes Captain at the end, cool. But his actions are never explained. He’s never explained. What did he prove to himself by the end of the first film? And the second movie is even worse (and also pisses me off).The second movie shows us a side of Jim that falters, it shows that his confidence and cockiness are really tenuous and often disguise his insecurities.
This is exemplified by his line to Spock where he says (basically), “I’m not a good Captain, Spock, you are.” And then he dies and comes back and??? Okay??? But there was never any resolution to what he said. Is Jim a good Captain? Nobody ever argued with him when he said he wasn’t. Spock and Bones and Uhura saved him, but they would’ve saved anybody if they could’ve. There was literally never any fucking resolution to that line or that arc. He said that and quit being captain and essentially committed suicide and then bam, he’s captain again and we just never talk about it. Jim had no arc, there was no “this is how he started, and this is how he ended, and this is how he’s grown as a person.” Spock kind of had that in both movies. Jim didn’t.
So that leaves the fandom with half of a really interesting character and a bunch of blanks to fill in, and child abuse coupled with Tarsus IV fill in those blanks pretty nicely. They explain why that baby from the first scene became an angry, bloody-knuckled repeat offender picking up girls in backwoods dive bars in the Midwest. It explains why he’s cheating at tests and disrespecting authority figures and driving cars off cliffs, and why he’s so insecure and self-deprecating at times. It explains what the movies never bothered to about their own fucking main character.
Just my 2 cents, but I’m still angry that they left out the scene between Sam and Jim in the first movies because gosh, that scene will make sense why Jim is the way he is.
Guys! It was SO GOOD! I swear I don’t ever want to watch a movie any other way.
You know what’s better than the first 20 minutes of Star Trek? The first 20 minutes of Star Trek with a LIVE FUCKING ORCHESTRA!
It was so phenomenal, and everyone was wearing Star Fleet insignias on their lapels (the orchestra, the ushers, the conductor), and the conductor raised the baton with one hand and offered a Ta’al with the other, and everyone was cheering and the orchestra got a standing ovation and during the credits everyone hooted when Michael Giacchino‘s name came up and then again when Leonard’s did (and clapping pretty much throughout). And I noticed things I’ve never noticed before (biggest screen I’ve seen it on in a while), and the audience was laughing out loud in parts. There was such great energy.
If this comes to a city near you, GO! It is SO WORTH IT.
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